As for the men,
Vangelis Papazoglou speaks like a serious mangas in his short dialogue with Stellakis Perpiniadis in the song "The voice of narghilè". I`m sure he was not exaggerating.
I believe that Dalgas was also a serious mangas, Zacharias Kasimatis, Kostas Karipis, K. Skarvelis (we listen to his voice in Vamvakaris song "Otan me vlepeis kai perno"- Rembetika in PIRAEUS, Volume II, 1933-1937, song 3) saying "Yià sou Marko dervisi me tis peniès sou tis èxypnes", K. Tzovenos, Markos, Keromytis, Stratos, Batis of course and so many others.
Sotiris Gavalas was also a typical mangas. When he says "Arpa tin, Memeti" in the song "In the Bezestèni Yard" (Στου Μπεζεστένη την αυλή") CD MORTIKA, song 17, he is not acting. He is himself.
When Kostis is saying "Arpa tin" (Get it! - meaning, get the stab(with a knife) in one of his songs, he's pretending. He did not belong to mangia. He was just a clever and capable musician, singer and guitar player (if it is him playing the guitar in all his songs) .
G. Papaioannou was an original mangas. He was not pretending to be. You can easily recognize it in his voice. When he played live and the customers were talking loudly, he used to say with a heavy mangiki voice: "Βe quiet! We have here somebody who's sick"(...)
Vasilis Tsitsanis lived (at least mentally) in the outer borders of mangia, though he knew perfectly all the roles and rules. He was not needed to play or be a mangas. He was just Vasilis Tsitsanis, a country boy and he continued like that up to his end.
Michalis Genitsaris was en "arkoudomangas". He was tough but logical with an original mangas "ideology". He did not like troubles, though he got involved in a lot and found no reasons not to take the law in his hands, when needed. The way he talked did not remind of manges though he really was.
Bayianderas was a real mangas! Today's "experts" have an arrogant attitude towards him considering that he mostly was a romantic serenader. It's funny and tragic. Bayianderas joined the whole thing from the very beginning of Riraeus period. He was brave and serious. I totally trust everything he has said. His "romantic" songs were simply a clever choise he did after listening to Faltaitz's advices. His mangika songs are perfect, "clever" and have a fantastic rythm, different from all the others...
Saturday, April 12, 2008
Finishing with manges...
A dais(bully) from Istanbul -drawing by Panos Nikoli TzelepiOK with all that. Some more words...
There is a tendency to almost avoid going any deeper in writing or discussing rebetiko, more than exchanging details and glorifying facts. I think there is a superficial feeling about manges, saying that they just talked about hasch, water pipes, played music, drunk wine and ouzo, made jokes, were teasing or knifing each other... Like if they were a kind of Hollow men without everyday problems, without private troubles. And that is both sorrowfull and very annoying...
There is a tendency to almost avoid going any deeper in writing or discussing rebetiko, more than exchanging details and glorifying facts. I think there is a superficial feeling about manges, saying that they just talked about hasch, water pipes, played music, drunk wine and ouzo, made jokes, were teasing or knifing each other... Like if they were a kind of Hollow men without everyday problems, without private troubles. And that is both sorrowfull and very annoying...
To be contradictory I`m publishing the verses of a very sweet and nostalgic rebetiko which has exactly this content that today`s young people believe about manga`s life. But a commercial song`s purpose is to help somebody to dream, to escape. Reality is something else..
ΑΕΙΝΤΕ ΡΕ ΜΟΡΤΗ, ΠΕΙΡΑΙΩΤΗ (1931) Pathe Γαλλίας X-80154, Γιώργος Αραπάκης/Μ. Σκουλούδης
(there is one more version with NOUROS)
First, the greek text:
Άειντε ρε μόρτη(*1), ρε Πειραιώτη, με τ΄άσπρο ζουναράκι(*2) σου και με τον κόφτη(*3),/μ΄αυτή την τόση τη λεβεντιά σου, ποτέ δε λείπει γκόμενα(*4) από κοντά σου./Όλο ουζάκια στα κουτουκάκια και τσάρκα ύστερα σ΄όλα τα στεναδάκια/κι όποια μπανίσεις και την τσατίσεις, δε σου γλυτώνει, βλάμη, θα την ξεμυαλίσεις/...
Όλο με φέρσιμο γκιουλέκικο(*5) χορεύεις, βλάμη, το ζεϊμπέκικο/και γιά να σβήσεις το μεράκι σου, τραβάς τον κόφτη από το ζουναράκι σου/
Χόρεψε λιγάκι, βρε Πειραιωτάκι, ένα χαβαδάκι(*6) μερακλίδικο/τώρα θα σου παίξει και το σαντουράκι ένα ζεϊμπεκάκι σεβνταλίδικο/Γειά χαρά σου, βρε λεβέντη, γειά σου βρε ντερβίση μου,/χορό, μεθύσι, γκόμενες και ζάρι, έτσι θα περνώ τη ζήση μου.
in English
Cheer up Piraeus morti, with your white girdle and your knife/you are so chivalrous so that you always have a chick besides you/drinking ouzo in small tavernas and then promenades in narrow streets/any woman you see and make her angry, she can΄t slip away, you make her loose her mind/...
You dance, my lad, zeibekiko, in a gioulekiko way and instead of forgetting your meraki, you pick up the knife from your girdle/
Dance, you Piraeotaki, a havadaki meraklidiko, the sanduri will play, for your shake, a passionated zeibekaki./Cheer up, my chivalrus guy, cheer up my dervisi/Only with dance, drunkeness, chicks and dices, that's the way I spend my life...
Comments/Unknown words
I have used red letters for the words you probably do not know their meanings. Some further explanations:
1. μόρτης ο, μόρτισσα η, (mortis, mortisa) : almost impossible to translate and explain the word, even in greek. Be satisfied if I'm saying that it means a clever mangas with a right behaviour, loved by all...
2. ζουνάρι, ζωνάρι, ζουναράκι το, (zounari, zonari, zonarnaki) Ι've used the word girdle which is an underwear for women, worn round the wathat sist and hips, that supports and shapes the stomach, hips and bottom. Ιt is ecactly what I mean. Men used it -and still do, mostly oldies - in Balcan countries. You can see it clearly in the picture above.
3. κόφτης ο, (koftis) from the verb κόβω(kovo= cut) knife
4. γκόμενα (gomena) slang. The word has existed only in feminine form and meant a woman we are fond of, a woman with which we have a relation. Many women in Greece, mostly middle-aged, dislike it. The young girls don't bother at all and they use the word even in a male form (gomenos) .
5. γκιουλέκικο το, (derives from the name of an Albanian rebell called Gion Lekka) - I'm behaving as a gioulekas = terrify, pretend to be a bully.
6. χαβαδάκι(havadaki) dimun.(Τurkish. hava) tune, melody of a song
Me tis ygeies sas...
Thursday, April 10, 2008
1. The syndrome of Markos Vamvakaris adornment and the prolonged puberty of rebetiko lovers...
The following posts are refering to the glorification of certain figures and details in rebetiko. A glorification which causes damage and stagnates a deeper understanding of this music.
Markos Vamvakaris is a flaming star. He is widely accepted and recognized as the main deputy and successor of the "struggled" Mikrasiates (refugee music). To talk or write critically about Markos is equivalent to offend the divine.
I have loved myself Markos and still love him. Not only because of his songs, but even for his bravery to speak open about himself, about his turbulent life. Markos had something that the others did not. He could observe his life both from the inner and the outer side. He was an observer of himself, at least when he got old (as usual). But he dared! On the other hand, everything has a beginning and en end, and in the beginning is the end included... This is something that the majority of human beings cannot accept. We behave like if we were immortals. Markos could not understand that either. He ended hil life quite bitter because he had not get the "permission" to visit the US, because he considered that he was forgotten even that different people showed unthankfulness towards him . He was right, in some way. Unthankfulness is something very usual in Greece, almost a rule...
Markos Vamvakaris is a flaming star. He is widely accepted and recognized as the main deputy and successor of the "struggled" Mikrasiates (refugee music). To talk or write critically about Markos is equivalent to offend the divine.
I have loved myself Markos and still love him. Not only because of his songs, but even for his bravery to speak open about himself, about his turbulent life. Markos had something that the others did not. He could observe his life both from the inner and the outer side. He was an observer of himself, at least when he got old (as usual). But he dared! On the other hand, everything has a beginning and en end, and in the beginning is the end included... This is something that the majority of human beings cannot accept. We behave like if we were immortals. Markos could not understand that either. He ended hil life quite bitter because he had not get the "permission" to visit the US, because he considered that he was forgotten even that different people showed unthankfulness towards him . He was right, in some way. Unthankfulness is something very usual in Greece, almost a rule...
2. Reaching the limits...
I will never forget a scene from an indifferent Greek movie where one could see a typical bouzouki orchestra, after rebetiko´s "death". On the back stage one could see two old musicians playing, Stratos Payioumitzis and Markos Vamvakaris. Stratos seemed to be glad, perhaps because he was invited, though Markos looks bitter and wondering. He looks around himself with a suspicious glance in his eyes and he does not seem to understand where he is (why would he do it?). The atmosphere is foolish, artificial and superficial...
As I said, I´ve loved Markos but as the years went by I felt that I reached my limits. I felt that the devotedness to him and the fascinating "Piraeus school" isolated me to a quite narrow point of view. I felt the need to "investigate", more seriously than before, the musical tradition which influenced (directly or indirectly) Markos. By saying that I mean, especially, the refugee music tradition . I do not regret it. I got deeper to a multifarious music with continuous searching for new experiments in playing the instruments and orchestration, something missing i "Piraeus school´s" simplicity. Markos music and the Piraeotic mangia was, generally speaking, a fascinating but conservative manoeuvre to put things in their "right" place, after the "confusion" caused by the invasion of Mikrasiates, both musically and "morally".
Some craracteristcs of the "change" were: (1) women´s role was eliminated, (2) joy, which characterised the biggest part of Mikrasiatika, turned into grumbling and murmur (we are talking about songs composed before 1938), (3 the joyful greetings among musicians and towards the singers, during the songs, almost dissapeared, (4) the erotic flirt and sensualism in the simple verses of Mikrasiatika was also eliminated and (5) the verses became more male orientated...
As I said, I´ve loved Markos but as the years went by I felt that I reached my limits. I felt that the devotedness to him and the fascinating "Piraeus school" isolated me to a quite narrow point of view. I felt the need to "investigate", more seriously than before, the musical tradition which influenced (directly or indirectly) Markos. By saying that I mean, especially, the refugee music tradition . I do not regret it. I got deeper to a multifarious music with continuous searching for new experiments in playing the instruments and orchestration, something missing i "Piraeus school´s" simplicity. Markos music and the Piraeotic mangia was, generally speaking, a fascinating but conservative manoeuvre to put things in their "right" place, after the "confusion" caused by the invasion of Mikrasiates, both musically and "morally".
Some craracteristcs of the "change" were: (1) women´s role was eliminated, (2) joy, which characterised the biggest part of Mikrasiatika, turned into grumbling and murmur (we are talking about songs composed before 1938), (3 the joyful greetings among musicians and towards the singers, during the songs, almost dissapeared, (4) the erotic flirt and sensualism in the simple verses of Mikrasiatika was also eliminated and (5) the verses became more male orientated...
3. Markos as a market value...
If we see Markos through a modern marketing concept we can say that he fulfils all necessary demands. He is, first of all, very simple. His melodies are easy to learn, the verses easy to put in mind and, it is simple for a beginner to play his songs. On another level there is much more than that. He is sincere, he mostly narrates his turbulent life and that mobilizes feelings of sympathy and compassion. Markos is a proper idol for the young people who are angry against the establishment, in a general meaning. He is a typical male, he loved women, he described what they did to him, he smoked hash. He was beloved when he played his bouzouki and sung about typical love troubles with women. Another important factor is his rough voice. It is quite easy and a signal of toughness from a young man´s side to imitate his voice. To imitate Markos voice you do not need any wide vocal capacity. In other words, Markos songs have everything needed instead of saling well.
Markos and Tsitsanis were two important composers who, by working out the prior Mikrasiatiko musical tradition and filtrating it through their strong personality, gave something new.
Ending this post I would like to point out something which, I believe, is quite important. The "recycling" of the same and same details, the TV and Radio -programmes who present exactly the same topics, always seen from the same angle, cause damage to rebetiko´s reputation. The "others", those who know nothing or just a little about this magic music, are getting bored and get furthermore reservations and bloody fool negative atittudes. Am I wrong?
Markos and Tsitsanis were two important composers who, by working out the prior Mikrasiatiko musical tradition and filtrating it through their strong personality, gave something new.
Ending this post I would like to point out something which, I believe, is quite important. The "recycling" of the same and same details, the TV and Radio -programmes who present exactly the same topics, always seen from the same angle, cause damage to rebetiko´s reputation. The "others", those who know nothing or just a little about this magic music, are getting bored and get furthermore reservations and bloody fool negative atittudes. Am I wrong?
Monday, April 7, 2008
Hi, anonymous...
I think you are the second person who reacts in my new blog "Rebetiko (in English)" and I thank you for that! Instead of answering with an email I thought it would be better to write a new post since your questions are interesting even for other people.
Your comment was: How would you define the male manga person and the female, if there is such a difference? Or do you think of it as a male personality? Does this have to do with masculinity to you? To me it sounds like human dignity, but I might not understand...
I was glad to see that you mentioned the female version of the word mangas (mangissa). It is one of my beloved topics and I have written quite a lot about the sensible differences in the use of nouns in my dictionary of rebetiko which is going to be published during the autumn 2008.
My purpose with the post "The same old story - WHAT MEANS MANGAS?" was not to start discussions about this very word. I´m terribly bored when I see people arguing and rearguing about the same things on rebetiko forums. My purpose was to give some comments and start using the words "mangas" and "mangia", knowing that I have already explained what I have in mind. I don´t want to define, I only want to describe. I am not a methodologist, an intellectual researcher who cut rebetiko into pieces, wearing white gloves and examines it with a magnifying glass. I am aware that I use a "different" language in approaching it. My language is the one of heart and thorax. I let my heart speak, filtrating my experiences from the last people of rebetiko. I even use my mind instead of not allowing myself get into fanatism and enroll this music in a mythological veil. I am aware too of the continuous struggle between "ego" and "it"...
Now, I will answer your questions.
Is there such a difference between male and female mangas?
Yes, if you agree that a man and a woman are completely different. Women´s attitudes have always been different and cannot be changed within some seconds, as we(they) need to believe. Women, according to my opinion, do not need to drive big trucks, even for the simple reason that transport by trucks must be forbidden... And, women do not need to be mine-workers, even for the simple reason that we have to find alternative energy sources. Women are stronger organisms than men and they have not needed to be tough, in the same way as men. When they were forced to, they have showed that they can be much tougher than us. When the German police was hunting Baader- Meinhof the orders coming from the Police Department were clear: "Shoot the female members first".
Though I have glorified the character of the real mangas, I know that there is something self-destructive in his identity. Women, if you allow me to generalize, are not self-destructive as men. They are not programmed to. In case they fall into such an attitude,it usually last too long.
I believe in women who behold their sensuality, even when they are getting involved into men´s world. I believe that one of the most stupid things a woman can do is, to imitate male behaviours instead of being accepted by them. Mangisses, according to my opinion, were, Roza Eskenazy, Rita Abadzi, Angelitsa Papazoglou, Sofia Karivali, Daisy Stavropoulou, Poly Panou. The idol Sotiria Bellou was something else.
Is the attribute of being a mangas a proof for masculinity?
No, not at all. It is big mistake to mix up attitudes from older times with modern points of view. A big missunderstanding, with reasonable explanations, among young people of today is that mangia considers to be a proof of masculinity. According to common sense, if one feels sure of what he/she is does not need to emphasize it...
I suppose I have answered your interesting questions.
Your comment was: How would you define the male manga person and the female, if there is such a difference? Or do you think of it as a male personality? Does this have to do with masculinity to you? To me it sounds like human dignity, but I might not understand...
I was glad to see that you mentioned the female version of the word mangas (mangissa). It is one of my beloved topics and I have written quite a lot about the sensible differences in the use of nouns in my dictionary of rebetiko which is going to be published during the autumn 2008.
My purpose with the post "The same old story - WHAT MEANS MANGAS?" was not to start discussions about this very word. I´m terribly bored when I see people arguing and rearguing about the same things on rebetiko forums. My purpose was to give some comments and start using the words "mangas" and "mangia", knowing that I have already explained what I have in mind. I don´t want to define, I only want to describe. I am not a methodologist, an intellectual researcher who cut rebetiko into pieces, wearing white gloves and examines it with a magnifying glass. I am aware that I use a "different" language in approaching it. My language is the one of heart and thorax. I let my heart speak, filtrating my experiences from the last people of rebetiko. I even use my mind instead of not allowing myself get into fanatism and enroll this music in a mythological veil. I am aware too of the continuous struggle between "ego" and "it"...
Now, I will answer your questions.
Is there such a difference between male and female mangas?
Yes, if you agree that a man and a woman are completely different. Women´s attitudes have always been different and cannot be changed within some seconds, as we(they) need to believe. Women, according to my opinion, do not need to drive big trucks, even for the simple reason that transport by trucks must be forbidden... And, women do not need to be mine-workers, even for the simple reason that we have to find alternative energy sources. Women are stronger organisms than men and they have not needed to be tough, in the same way as men. When they were forced to, they have showed that they can be much tougher than us. When the German police was hunting Baader- Meinhof the orders coming from the Police Department were clear: "Shoot the female members first".
Though I have glorified the character of the real mangas, I know that there is something self-destructive in his identity. Women, if you allow me to generalize, are not self-destructive as men. They are not programmed to. In case they fall into such an attitude,it usually last too long.
I believe in women who behold their sensuality, even when they are getting involved into men´s world. I believe that one of the most stupid things a woman can do is, to imitate male behaviours instead of being accepted by them. Mangisses, according to my opinion, were, Roza Eskenazy, Rita Abadzi, Angelitsa Papazoglou, Sofia Karivali, Daisy Stavropoulou, Poly Panou. The idol Sotiria Bellou was something else.
Is the attribute of being a mangas a proof for masculinity?
No, not at all. It is big mistake to mix up attitudes from older times with modern points of view. A big missunderstanding, with reasonable explanations, among young people of today is that mangia considers to be a proof of masculinity. According to common sense, if one feels sure of what he/she is does not need to emphasize it...
I suppose I have answered your interesting questions.
Complementary to Anonymous... (2)
Your answer to "Hi Anonymous!" (see below) was...
"...And of course I agree, man and woman are different from each other, thank God. I also wonder about something else you talk about. You say that mangas don´t want to harm anybody and hold a low profile. Self-respect, self-control. And then you talk about the self-wounding as an magnificent attitude (not so normal among the women). I understand we are talking about a historical type of personality here, but the admiration of this concept may still be a reality. To me self-wounding is hurting your next, it is an act of violence that hurts the other, even though he himself is not beaten. How does this go together? Is it some sort of stoic thinking in the bottom? Or does it have to do with pride and desperation? Within the mangas culture it seems to be an accepted way of resolving conflicts and contradictions with the outside and the inside.
My answer
Completely missunderstood! By saying self-wounding (is it wrong in English?) I mean that somebody hurts himself instead of harming somebody else. That is why I call it magnificent. It declares distance from violence towards another person, it declares dignity and self-respect. At the same time it reveals a certain incapacity to controll the black waters of anger coming within oneself. Women do not do it. It does not have to do with their tradition. Am I clear?
"...And of course I agree, man and woman are different from each other, thank God. I also wonder about something else you talk about. You say that mangas don´t want to harm anybody and hold a low profile. Self-respect, self-control. And then you talk about the self-wounding as an magnificent attitude (not so normal among the women). I understand we are talking about a historical type of personality here, but the admiration of this concept may still be a reality. To me self-wounding is hurting your next, it is an act of violence that hurts the other, even though he himself is not beaten. How does this go together? Is it some sort of stoic thinking in the bottom? Or does it have to do with pride and desperation? Within the mangas culture it seems to be an accepted way of resolving conflicts and contradictions with the outside and the inside.
My answer
Completely missunderstood! By saying self-wounding (is it wrong in English?) I mean that somebody hurts himself instead of harming somebody else. That is why I call it magnificent. It declares distance from violence towards another person, it declares dignity and self-respect. At the same time it reveals a certain incapacity to controll the black waters of anger coming within oneself. Women do not do it. It does not have to do with their tradition. Am I clear?
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
